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	<title>Comments for James and the Giant Corn</title>
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	<description>Genetics: Studying the Source Code of Nature</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:50:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by James</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-32085</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-32085</guid>
		<description>Well what I can actually back up with evidence is that ecology labs have less funding per student, and that the students who go on to be hired for tenure track positions in Ecology and Evolution have a ridiculous number of papers by the time they are hired. Based on a 2009 study in an (obscure) Ecology journal, the average tenure track hire in the field already had 12-13 papers (7-8 of them as first author). doi: &lt;a href=&quot;http://dx.doi.org/10.1560/IJEE.55.4.381&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;10.1560/IJEE.55.4.381&lt;/a&gt; N=119, but it&#039;s better than no data at all. The handful of recent plant genetics hires I&#039;ve been able to track down have ~1/2 those publication stats.

I&#039;m honestly surprised the issue the editor you were talking to brought up doesn&#039;t get discussed more. Aside from a little amount of discussion about &quot;predatory&quot; for-profit open access journals no one seems to be talking about the change in incentives &quot;author-pays&quot; models bring about. I&#039;m really excited to see how &quot;eLife&quot; does when it launches, since it&#039;ll at least initially be operating under a &quot;philanthropy pays&quot; open access model. 

Now if only we could get enough such funding to cover all of science, we&#039;d really be set... ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well what I can actually back up with evidence is that ecology labs have less funding per student, and that the students who go on to be hired for tenure track positions in Ecology and Evolution have a ridiculous number of papers by the time they are hired. Based on a 2009 study in an (obscure) Ecology journal, the average tenure track hire in the field already had 12-13 papers (7-8 of them as first author). doi: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1560/IJEE.55.4.381" rel="nofollow">10.1560/IJEE.55.4.381</a> N=119, but it&#8217;s better than no data at all. The handful of recent plant genetics hires I&#8217;ve been able to track down have ~1/2 those publication stats.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m honestly surprised the issue the editor you were talking to brought up doesn&#8217;t get discussed more. Aside from a little amount of discussion about &#8220;predatory&#8221; for-profit open access journals no one seems to be talking about the change in incentives &#8220;author-pays&#8221; models bring about. I&#8217;m really excited to see how &#8220;eLife&#8221; does when it launches, since it&#8217;ll at least initially be operating under a &#8220;philanthropy pays&#8221; open access model. </p>
<p>Now if only we could get enough such funding to cover all of science, we&#8217;d really be set&#8230; <img src='http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Greg</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-32083</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 03:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-32083</guid>
		<description>Interesting set of ideas. I would be very curious to see how funding breaks down by field when looking at grant money / number of papers (do ecologist actually have less funding per paper they publish).

I have discussed this topic with the editor of a subscription based ecology journal, he has an interesting take. When journals are subscription pay based they have incentive to only accept high quality material; they want to attract as many subscribers as possible. With an authors pay journal the incentive is go take in as many papers as possible. Because of this there are fears that the average quality of papers would suffer as a result of a journal going open source. Of course this is more black and white then reality but is one source of resistance to going open access.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting set of ideas. I would be very curious to see how funding breaks down by field when looking at grant money / number of papers (do ecologist actually have less funding per paper they publish).</p>
<p>I have discussed this topic with the editor of a subscription based ecology journal, he has an interesting take. When journals are subscription pay based they have incentive to only accept high quality material; they want to attract as many subscribers as possible. With an authors pay journal the incentive is go take in as many papers as possible. Because of this there are fears that the average quality of papers would suffer as a result of a journal going open source. Of course this is more black and white then reality but is one source of resistance to going open access.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by James</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31840</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31840</guid>
		<description>Once more I should first say everything I am saying is complete speculation. I&#039;m not an ecologist. But yes, there is less grant funding available for ecology research (relative to genetics or research with medical implications). A second issue is that there are so MANY ecology labs (even small liberal arts colleges can support them) and so many undergraduates who want to study ecological questions in grad school -- and are willing to put up with having to TA all the time to get that chance. So the funding for ecology is spread very thin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once more I should first say everything I am saying is complete speculation. I&#8217;m not an ecologist. But yes, there is less grant funding available for ecology research (relative to genetics or research with medical implications). A second issue is that there are so MANY ecology labs (even small liberal arts colleges can support them) and so many undergraduates who want to study ecological questions in grad school &#8212; and are willing to put up with having to TA all the time to get that chance. So the funding for ecology is spread very thin.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by James</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31838</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31838</guid>
		<description>I agree with you that at the level of whole universities publishing/subscription costs are a zero sum game. 

But the point I was trying to make is that may not be true for individual disciplines. It very well could be that the cost of publishing Ecology journals is subsidized by overhead from other departments which are more successful at bringing in external sources of funding. So economic models that explicitly shift the cost of publishing to individual researchers from university libraries might be neutral or beneficial overall, but still bad for disciplines that have been benefiting from these sorts of hidden subsidies.

In my own field (plant biology), the highest impact journals are published by the American Society of Plant Biologists. These journals haven&#039;t moved to an exclusively open access model yet, however the ASPB (unlike the ESA) opposes the Research Works Act. There is clearly variation between different societies, although whether that is a result of the differences in the fields themselves, or just the views of the people who happened to be in power within different organizations when the OA movement burst on the scene is certainly open to debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that at the level of whole universities publishing/subscription costs are a zero sum game. </p>
<p>But the point I was trying to make is that may not be true for individual disciplines. It very well could be that the cost of publishing Ecology journals is subsidized by overhead from other departments which are more successful at bringing in external sources of funding. So economic models that explicitly shift the cost of publishing to individual researchers from university libraries might be neutral or beneficial overall, but still bad for disciplines that have been benefiting from these sorts of hidden subsidies.</p>
<p>In my own field (plant biology), the highest impact journals are published by the American Society of Plant Biologists. These journals haven&#8217;t moved to an exclusively open access model yet, however the ASPB (unlike the ESA) opposes the Research Works Act. There is clearly variation between different societies, although whether that is a result of the differences in the fields themselves, or just the views of the people who happened to be in power within different organizations when the OA movement burst on the scene is certainly open to debate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Kitaev</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31831</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitaev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 20:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>И почему же экологические лаборатории такие бедные? Неужели все деньги уходят в генетику  и медицину?
Why is ecologycal labs so poor? Is all money off grants been getting geneyics and medics?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>И почему же экологические лаборатории такие бедные? Неужели все деньги уходят в генетику  и медицину?<br />
Why is ecologycal labs so poor? Is all money off grants been getting geneyics and medics?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Kulbhushan</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31809</link>
		<dc:creator>Kulbhushan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31809</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t realize that the poverty of ecologists could hamper their progress towards adopting open access!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t realize that the poverty of ecologists could hamper their progress towards adopting open access!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Casey Bergman</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31808</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey Bergman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31808</guid>
		<description>I take your point that under the current economic models, there may not explicitly be cash for OA in many ecology projects.  However, it is a zero-sum game in reality since all publishing costs are ultimately funded by grants and universities. So while economics can be seen as the proximate cause for why OA is not taking off in disciplines like ecology, it cannot be the ultimate cause.

My view is that the deeper cause is sociological, and related to the role that Learned Societies have evolved to play in academic fields, especially Society&#039;s that are perceived to publish the high-impact journals in a particular field.  In fields like Ecology, where there are effectively no OA journals to submit to (besides BMC Ecology &amp; PLoS ONE), Societies can maintain a guaranteed subsidized revenue stream via their stranglehold on the publishing market by rejecting OA. 

Societies fear OA since it disrupts the Society&#039;s economic base, not because it disrupts the Journal&#039;s economic base. PLoS and BMC prove that journals can be economically sustainable under OA. What is at issue here is the potential risk of OA to kill off the classical cash stream that support Societies. And like any bureacratic class in government, universities, etc., Learned Society bureacracies will seek to protect themselves, even at the expense of the hands that feed them.

What is needed is a broader discussion of alternative economic models for Learned Society&#039;s that are not coupled to subsidies based on publishing closed access journals.  If such alternatives are non-viable, then perhaps it is time to ask how Learned Society&#039;s must adapt to the realities of the 21st century or if they are actually necessary at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your point that under the current economic models, there may not explicitly be cash for OA in many ecology projects.  However, it is a zero-sum game in reality since all publishing costs are ultimately funded by grants and universities. So while economics can be seen as the proximate cause for why OA is not taking off in disciplines like ecology, it cannot be the ultimate cause.</p>
<p>My view is that the deeper cause is sociological, and related to the role that Learned Societies have evolved to play in academic fields, especially Society&#8217;s that are perceived to publish the high-impact journals in a particular field.  In fields like Ecology, where there are effectively no OA journals to submit to (besides BMC Ecology &amp; PLoS ONE), Societies can maintain a guaranteed subsidized revenue stream via their stranglehold on the publishing market by rejecting OA. </p>
<p>Societies fear OA since it disrupts the Society&#8217;s economic base, not because it disrupts the Journal&#8217;s economic base. PLoS and BMC prove that journals can be economically sustainable under OA. What is at issue here is the potential risk of OA to kill off the classical cash stream that support Societies. And like any bureacratic class in government, universities, etc., Learned Society bureacracies will seek to protect themselves, even at the expense of the hands that feed them.</p>
<p>What is needed is a broader discussion of alternative economic models for Learned Society&#8217;s that are not coupled to subsidies based on publishing closed access journals.  If such alternatives are non-viable, then perhaps it is time to ask how Learned Society&#8217;s must adapt to the realities of the 21st century or if they are actually necessary at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Why doesn&#8217;t the Ecological Society of America allow their Open Access content to be text mined? &#171; I wish you&#039;d made me angry earlier</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31806</link>
		<dc:creator>Why doesn&#8217;t the Ecological Society of America allow their Open Access content to be text mined? &#171; I wish you&#039;d made me angry earlier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] James and the Giant Corn &#8211; Open Access and Ecologists [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James and the Giant Corn &#8211; Open Access and Ecologists [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by James</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31783</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31783</guid>
		<description>And excellent point William. Also an illustration of the risks of building entirely speculative stories in the absence of data. 

I would guess earth scientists depend more on public shared datasets while the ecology labs I know tend to be doing fewer things where reuse of data is possible. But that is just adding even more anecdote and speculation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And excellent point William. Also an illustration of the risks of building entirely speculative stories in the absence of data. </p>
<p>I would guess earth scientists depend more on public shared datasets while the ecology labs I know tend to be doing fewer things where reuse of data is possible. But that is just adding even more anecdote and speculation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Open Access and Ecologists by Will Spooner</title>
		<link>http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/2012/01/06/open-access-and-ecologists/comment-page-1/#comment-31780</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Spooner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesandthegiantcorn.com/?p=2061#comment-31780</guid>
		<description>All very reasonable, but how come (cash strapped) earth sciences (inc. ecology?) lead the league table of open access adoption? These &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access#Adoption_statistics&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; OA adoption statistics &lt;/a&gt; really surprised me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very reasonable, but how come (cash strapped) earth sciences (inc. ecology?) lead the league table of open access adoption? These <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access#Adoption_statistics" rel="nofollow"> OA adoption statistics </a> really surprised me!</p>
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